Monday, March 06, 2006

A Challenge to Steve Camp

Steve Camp is a man who enjoys patting himself on the back. In a recent blog, Steve was fond of an email which called him "the Simon Cowel of evangelicalism." "I guess it fits," Steve said.

Steve is also fond of finding miniscule faults in others. In his blog, Steve made sure his readers noticed that he correctly spelled the word, Arminian. He then added, "Just pointing this out for Dr. Caner's benefit." Steve was referring to Dr. Caner's misspelling of the word in a recent published email. Steve, can you spell miniscule?

He also likes taking cheap shots. He took a cheap shot at the Southern Baptist Convention, calling it "the SBC (Salvation By Convenience)". Steve is not a Southern Baptist but he enjoys taking jabs at us.

Steve's self-laudatory and nit-picking behavior are not what prompted today's blog. Like most Calvinists, Steve is also wont to creating straw man arguments which are quickly followed by irrational statements.

Steve apparently believes that the SBC consists of churches which embrace Arminianism. This is not the case but since Steve is not a Southern Baptist I will assume he knows little about us. It is not clear if he is speaking of SBC churches or Arminianism but he describes a certain disagreeable theology as one which does not require godly living.

Once you have made a verbal profession of faith you are saved for eternity. If you bear fruit to that end in your life or no fruit (John 15:1-5) it really doesn't matter. Forget about the life being changed--your mere words are more than enough to "secure the deal."

Here is my challenge to Steve Camp: Can you name one Southern Baptist pastor who teaches this? I know of none.

14 Comments:

At Monday, March 06, 2006 5:37:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am Southern Baptist and also am a Calvinist and there are and has always been SBC churches who stress profession and baptism and that is it. Lordship salvation is not taught. Sanctification is a word not heard. Why do you think our membership is so questionable. We have about 1800 on the books and have about 500 in Sunday School/ 600 in Worship on a good Sunday.
I believe the problem is just what Steve Camp addresses when he shares his opinion wheither we like that opinion or not! We cry evangelism when in actuality we don't do biblical evangelism - its like rounding up cattle only to let them out in the feild thinking all is well and then they go to the slaughter not know anything. Shameful! Flyswat all you want but Biblical Truth will never die!!!

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006 5:43:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Charles, you nailed it!

I've told friends at the IMB about this blog. Keep up the good work!

Tim
IMB - South America

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006 5:50:00 PM, Blogger Daniel said...

Good post. Strawmen burn far too easily.

 
At Tuesday, March 07, 2006 2:49:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I used to listen to Steve Camp's music. Then he got Reformed and now he's just mean. Great post! I'll be interested in seeing what name he comes up with.

John the missionary

 
At Tuesday, March 07, 2006 5:29:00 PM, Blogger Goodtimes said...

Par for the course . . . all of the pushy, rabid Calvinists I have known or read come across as very arrogant and mean spirited.

 
At Tuesday, March 07, 2006 6:01:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Funny! I didn't name call in my post and don't recall your type of name calling on others that I am involved in. Usually we stick to the issues and if it labels, well..., but name calling, I don't think so. For example "mean", "pushy rabid" "arrogant and mean".
Instead of your name calling put some substance into your.
disagreements instead of the above!
Of course you must have Biblical substance not just opinion.....
Oh, its strange to see missionary so anti-William Cary, Lottie Moon and others....

 
At Wednesday, March 08, 2006 10:14:00 AM, Blogger Kevin said...

Even though no pastor would say "don't worry about fruit... seal the deal" that is a belief that many, if not most, demonstrate in the practice of the church.

Since the overwhelming majority of SBC churches do not practice church discipline, we also have no words of warning for those who are forsaking the assembling of the saints for decades, who don't show love for the brethren, who show not fruit of regeneration, etc.,

We have nothing to say to those who show more evidence of being lost, than saved. We demonstrate a wicked type of compassion that refuses to tell potentially false professors of their peril if they do not examine their salvation, repent and believe.

We treat the people practically as though they should have no worries if their name on the roll, if when they were 10 years old they really meant it when they repeated the sinner's prayer.

Why do pastor's like me have so much trouble cleaning up the rolls? Because many SBC'ers live with the hope that their family member will be in heaven because their name is on the roll. To see the reaction for removing an inactive member from the rolls, you would think that we erased them from the Lamb's Book of Life.

Again no one says this, but we act as though it is true. Family who mourn the lost of a loved one often find more comfort in the fact that they were a member of a baptist church rather than the fact that they lived with Christ as their Lord.

 
At Thursday, March 09, 2006 9:42:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Amen hashman! This is so true of the majority of SBC churches and the way the convention thinks.....
We claim to be the church of the Bible but we are the church of the parts of the Bible we like which means we are like a former American President who cut from the text the things he didn't like.
If the Bible is Truth without error then we must love it all or we really don't love it at all! That is the difference between Reformed and Non-Reformed - Reformed say yes to the whole!

 
At Thursday, March 09, 2006 11:36:00 AM, Blogger Goodtimes said...

anonymous--Comments were not directed at you. My apologies. I was referring to the topic of the post and to Calvinists (or, more specifically, hyper-Calvinists) in general.

 
At Thursday, March 09, 2006 10:35:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

goodtimes,
I appreciate the apology but unless I am totally misunderstanding something you are speaking to me because I am a Calvinist (not a hyper but a 5 pter.) By the way Steve isn't a hyper either. Its funny how most non-Calvinist consider all 5 pters hyper. I do believe it is because they do not understand Calvinism or for a more Biblical terminology - the Doctrines of Grace! But again I do appreciate your apology.

 
At Friday, March 10, 2006 9:07:00 AM, Blogger Chuck said...

Steve Camp does, at times, seem arrogant and pushy. However, I would rather hear the Gospel preached out of conviction- and make no mistake about it, Camp believes wholeheartedly what he preaches- than here the Gospel-Lite presentations of many SBC'ers. I say this as the son of a non-Calvinist SBC minister (who is still better than the average SBC guy). Charles Stanley stands clearly in the Free Grace theological position which you complain about here: different words, but still the substance.

 
At Friday, March 10, 2006 9:47:00 AM, Blogger Goodtimes said...

Have you noticed that Calvinists tend to define "hyper-Calvinism" as "Something I am not" or "Some (incorrect) doctrine beyond what I believe"? To me, hyper-Calvinism isn't separate doctrine or understanding of Calvinism--it's an attitude toward Calvinism that comes across as hostile and condescending to everyone else. Even in your previous post, you patronize non-Calvinists--"I do believe it is because they do not understand Calvinism or for a more Biblical terminology - the Doctrines of Grace!" I'm not trying to shoot you down personally--please don't take it that way. I am asking you honestly--have you ever noticed this?

 
At Friday, March 10, 2006 3:09:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

goodtimes you obviously don't realize that there is a form of so called calvinism out there known as hyper and that it has nothing to do with attitude but doctrine. Funny that you call my comments hostile when this blog is all about hostility toward those of us who are Calvinist. I don't consider my comments hostile but my defense of what I believe just as those who disagree defend their believe. Unfortunitely I don't find the non-calvinist argument to have much substance but just subjective opinion. I don't take any of this personally because I a firmly ground as I would assume you wouldn't take this personally either but I am afraid you do....

 
At Saturday, March 18, 2006 4:33:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

GOODTIMES asked,

Have you noticed that Calvinists tend to define "hyper-Calvinism" as "Something I am not" or "Some (incorrect) doctrine beyond what I believe"?

BOB'S Comment:

Goodtimes, I have been a Calvinist since about 1953, when I first got hold of Spurgeon's sermons and started reading them. And do you know, I have never yet met a "hyper Calvinist"!

There is just no such animal as a "hyper Calvinist" and never has been! Even the "Hardshells" deny that they are even "Calvinists," and so they could not be "hyper Calvinists," could they? They repudiatiated the Calvinistic London Confession in the early 1900s, and adopted their own "Fulton Confession."

I have been acquainted with just about every "Calvinist" group in various sections of the country which has arisen in the last 50 years, and I can assure you I have yet to meet a "hyper."

They are all "sound," "orthodox," and "stand" for the pure "doctrines of grace."

For example, when have you ever see a church sign which said, "Hyper Calvinist Baptist Church," or "Reformed Hyper Calvinist Grace Church"?

Or, when have you have ever seen a book called, A SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY OF HYPER CALVINISM?

When have you ever seen a Bible Conference held on Hyper Calvinism?

When have you ever heard a fellow say, "I am a ?-point Hyper Calvinist"?

I tell you, you would sooner find Oslami Ben Lotto before you could find a Hyper Calvinist.

Groups like the Reformed churches, Sovereign Grace Conferences in Ashland, KY, Banner of Turth/Grace Conferences in Carlisle, PA, "Founders" Conferences,
"Monergists," etc. -- they are all as clean as a hound's tooth from "hyper Calvinism."

However, you can almost say the same thing about the ARMINIANS, -- except in some cases among some Methodists, and perhaps a few others who openly affirm Arminianism.-- Bob L. Ross

 

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