Monday, July 17, 2006

Have Phil Johnson and Tom Ascol Bleached Out James White?

Are "Dr." James White's friends bleaching him out?

Take Brother James' upcoming "Pulpit Crimes" cruise. When it was first announced months ago, Brothers Phil Johnson and Steve Camp were the headliners, along with James. Now Phil's name is nowhere to be found on the cruise promo.

http://www.sovereigncruises.org/AO2006/index.htm

Where's Phil? Why has he cancelled? Has he bleached out James White?

Then there was the "debate of the century," the Caner brothers vs. James White and Dr. Tom Ascol. Now James has announced that Brother Tom will not be at the October 16th debate.

http://www.aomin.org/index.php?itemid=1435

Where's Tom? Why has he cancelled? Has he bleached out James White?

I won't even mention the dissing that Steve Camp gave to James about the Caner debate negotiations which James foolishly, and some say unethically, made public. OK, I guess I will mention it.

Brother Steve Camp said on the Flounders blog, "I think that most would agree, this has been a poor testimony all the way around ...."

Ouch! But with James' childish behavior what else could be said?

Of course, James couldn't let Steve get away with a remark like that. The next day, James blogged what I believe is a response to Steve, without mentioning his name, called "Monday Morning Quarterbacks."

At the time of my writing this blog, Steve Camp was still "on" for the cruise, but who knows what will happen? Will Steve also bleach out James White?

Has James' pre-debate whining caused all of this? Will Steve Camp follow Phil and Tom's lead and cancel out on James? Will cruise ticket sales suffer now that Phil has abandoned ship?

Stay tuned.

Charles

UPDATE (7/24/06): On May 9, Phil posted the following on his blog,

I've had to withdraw from the Alpha & Omega national conference and cruise in November. An unexpected conflict arose that makes it impossible for me to go. Of course, my duties at Grace to You and Grace Community Church must take priority over everything else I do. So although I regret having to cancel, I couldn't anticipate or avoid the conflict, and I can't change it. It especially pains me to disappoint James White, but he is a good friend and has been very gracious about it. Likewise, Mike O'Fallon, who is arranging the cruise, was extremely kind and understanding, even though my withdrawal is a huge inconvenience to him. My profound apologies to all who are inconvenienced or disappointed by it.

"An unexpected conflict arose"? Very interesting.

Charles

HT: SBTS student

39 Comments:

At Monday, July 17, 2006 7:53:00 PM, Blogger charis said...

Yet again, you are grasping at straws.

 
At Monday, July 17, 2006 11:41:00 PM, Anonymous hootie said...

is this a gossip column.
Go find someone and share the gospel with them.

 
At Tuesday, July 18, 2006 11:23:00 AM, Blogger Jeffro said...

Charles,

It is interesting how you seem to leave important statements out.

Steve Camp actually said,
"this has been a poor testimony all the way around (and no question that Ergun Caner clearly owns the vast lionshare of that responsibility)."

This may not leave James White out, but proves that Ergun Caner, not James White was who Camp was mainly referring to.

It is dishonest and shows a lack of integrity on your part to make the claims that you made on your post.

 
At Tuesday, July 18, 2006 11:28:00 AM, Blogger Jeffro said...

Furthermore,

All of the emails are available for your perusal. You know exactly why Tom Ascol has pulled out the debate. So why do you ask?

I am sure you pose the question, only because you have no other argumentation other than ad hominem attack. Therefore, my brother, based on your previous posts and on this one, you are no "Calvinist Flyswatter" at all. You swat only at your straw man perceptions.

 
At Tuesday, July 18, 2006 12:06:00 PM, Anonymous Bob L. Ross said...

A BIG DEAAL?

Bob to Charles:

I went to the Founders' blog, Charles, to see if Tom has commented on his "pull out" from the Canners-White Debate, and I noticed the following:

>>
Elias said...
Tom,

just wanted to say that there are probably lots of people like myself who would love to know your thoughts on Caners/White debate. The fact that you will not be participating is a big deal.

Elias

12:45 PM, July 17, 2006

>>

The only thing that is a "big deal" about this, Charles, is that James White will not be able to act as if he has the "endorsement" of the Founders, which ostensibly was the one-and-only reason he wanted Tom Ascol as his partner, anyway.

James is a pragmatist, and he never would have wanted inexperienced Tom for any debating help, but he would have loved to have had "official" Founders' endorsement. Now he is saddled with the burden of "explaining" why Ascol will not be his "co-debater."

Of course, one again he is blaming this on the Caners. They are just too "mean" for Tom to tolerate, but not yet "mean" enough to repel James.

 
At Tuesday, July 18, 2006 12:38:00 PM, Anonymous Bob L. Ross said...

AMAZING CHARLES!
Jeffro said...


It is dishonest and shows a lack of integrity on your part to make the claims that you made on your post.

I have to hand it to you, Charles, you know how to put the "needle" into the most appropriate "nerves" to get a "rise" out of the Hybrids!

On the Phil Johnson cruise matter, is it simply "coincidental" that his name was dropped from the cruise not long after we posted all of the past information about John MacArthur on "Sonship," which was made necessary by James so as to thoroughly rebutt his vain efforts to discredit me?

I don't think that either John or Phil appreciated the fact that James' remarks were the occasion for this information being published again after the 1990's.

 
At Tuesday, July 18, 2006 2:11:00 PM, Blogger Micah said...

James is a pragmatist, and he never would have wanted inexperienced Tom for any debating help, but he would have loved to have had "official" Founders' endorsement. Now he is saddled with the burden of "explaining" why Ascol will not be his "co-debater."

Let's be honest and not assume we know the motives of others and judge them according to our opinion.

Dr. White has stated that his intention all along was to debate Ergun Caner, alone, in a standard moderated debate and not in a tag-team parlimentary-style debate. It was Ergun Caner has insisted and is forcing the tag-team parlimentary style debate.

It was on this basis that James agreed to debate, and selected Tom to be his partner in the debate. Tom, as his blog expresses, is dealing with some personal issues, sickness etc and Dr. White, wanting to shield Tom from the nastiness of Ergun et al. has decided to handle this debate himself with Tom's full support.

Both Charles and Bob Ross should be ashamed leveling these kinds of charges against Dr White.

I challenge both of you to call Dr. White directly during the Dividing Line and proclaim your assertions there.

 
At Tuesday, July 18, 2006 6:19:00 PM, Anonymous Bob L. Ross said...

BEING HONEST
Micah said...


Let's be honest and not assume we know the motives of others and judge them according to our opinion.

I was being honest, and I ventured judging James' motive based on the known facts of the case. James selected Tom Ascol simply due to the fact that Ascol is head of the Founders. Ascol himself said he is not a debater, and it was not his idea. James obviously chose him for the appearance -- that he had the endorsement of the Founders.

 
At Tuesday, July 18, 2006 11:05:00 PM, Anonymous Bob L. Ross said...

CALL DIVIDING LINE?
Micah said...


I challenge both of you to call Dr. White directly during the Dividing Line and proclaim your assertions there.

Is James "hard up" for callers? If he wants me on his DL, he knows my phone number and can call me. -- Bob

 
At Wednesday, July 19, 2006 2:41:00 PM, Anonymous Bob L. Ross said...

"DIVINING LINE"

Bob to Charles:

I suppose, Charles, that you noticed the following by Gene Bridges on his blog:

For Bob and Charles

Alas, it seems that Rich Pierce is on vacation this week, so they are not taking calls at the Dividing Line, so you gentlemen have a week's reprieve. In case you haven't heard, Dr.
White made mention of you today, Charles, and you are very certainly invited by him to call. So, Mr. Pierce will be back next week, and they'll be taking calls. I look forward to hearing you and/or Mr. Ross actually interact with Dr. White "live."

posted by GeneMBridges at 9:55 PM, Tuesday, July 18, 2006.


I wonder, Charles, if Gene Bridges has become a "volunteer" to help James gain some interest in his "Divining Line." It seems the DL must be on "hard times" and in need of a "shot in the arm," and evidently Gene believes that you and I could somehow pump-up more interest.

I don't presume to speak for you, Charles, but if James wants to talk to me, he has my phone number.

If you decide to call the "Divining Line," Charles, you might include a question as to why James and his Elders have not acknowledged nor even responded to our invitation for them to come and present James' gripes before our church. You will recall that he demanded such, and although they were invited to come, they have not so much as even been courteous enough to acknowledge our invitation. Their "manners" are worse than the Caners in this regard, for the Caners have at least made some responses to James.

 
At Wednesday, July 19, 2006 5:34:00 PM, Blogger Charles said...

Brother Bob, Hello!

You said, It seems the DL must be on "hard times" and in need of a "shot in the arm," and evidently Gene believes that you and I could somehow pump-up more interest.

I suspect as much. James' behavior in matter of the Caner debate has been so repulsive that I believe even the "White light'n drunkards" are sobering up.

if James wants to talk to me, he has my phone number.

Bob, isn't it strange that James is hard up for callers to his "Internet / radio-wannabe" show yet he refuses to allow people to post on his blog? Seems like he is desperate to control the conversation, isn't he?

I don't know why anyone would waste their time with the "Dividing Line." His listener base is mostly hyper-Calvinist young men drunk on James' "White light'n." A prime example is Gene M. Bridges.

Have you ever wondered, Bob, why James' doesn't do a "real" radio show? James must realize that his radio talent would attract about as many people as his church building talent.

Charles

 
At Thursday, July 20, 2006 2:14:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Simply put, you are an childish idiot.

 
At Thursday, July 20, 2006 3:47:00 PM, Anonymous Bob L. Ross said...

QUESTION
Anonymous said...

Simply put, you are an childish idiot.

With such discernment, you must be a Hybrid? Right? What branch of the Hybrid sect are you with?

 
At Thursday, July 20, 2006 8:06:00 PM, Blogger Micah said...

I was being honest, and I ventured judging James' motive based on the known facts of the case.

It is evident you didn't. You're guilty of judging someone on false assumptions. It's amazing... just amazing that you have the gall to speak about someone like this without actually going first to them or bringing the charges before those who can question them. It's awful brave of you to take your potshots from behind a keyboard! Not.

 
At Thursday, July 20, 2006 8:14:00 PM, Blogger Micah said...

Is James "hard up" for callers? If he wants me on his DL, he knows my phone number and can call me. -- Bob

You're always invited (when the show is taking calls) to call in and make these assertions to Dr. White directly. It is your responsibility, as the one making the accusations to check your facts and be prepared to defend them.

See, if you call the Dividing Line program, (rather than simply making sophmoric puns about the title, Dr. White's degrees or implying movtive on Dr. White's part that he himself denies) the public at large will be able to examine and hear your defense of your claims rather than reading your one-sided nursery-rhymes.

Will this ever happen, or do you simply has the audacity to call people names and ridicule them behind their back but lack the courage to actually stand up and do what is right?

 
At Thursday, July 20, 2006 8:16:00 PM, Blogger Micah said...

why James and his Elders have not acknowledged nor even responded to our invitation for them to come and present James' gripes before our church

You want the elders of his church (which includes Dr. White) to come before YOUR church and present YOUR gripes? What are you trying to say?

James is an elder at PRBC, the Pastor there being Don Fry (if I recall correctly)... perhaps you might do a bit more research before sending off letters to people you don't even know.

 
At Thursday, July 20, 2006 8:18:00 PM, Blogger Micah said...

It seems the DL must be on "hard times" and in need of a "shot in the arm," and evidently Gene believes that you and I could somehow pump-up more interest.

Actually, the Dividing Line is fine, the reason we're urging you to call in is so that we might hear you bring your claims and charges to Dr. White himself and listen to the outcome.

 
At Thursday, July 20, 2006 8:19:00 PM, Blogger Micah said...

I don't know why anyone would waste their time with the "Dividing Line." His listener base is mostly hyper-Calvinist young men drunk on James' "White light'n." A prime example is Gene M. Bridges.

The scholarship of this blog is simply... laughable.

 
At Thursday, July 20, 2006 11:31:00 PM, Anonymous Bob L. Ross said...

JUDGING
Micah said...


It's amazing... just amazing that you have the gall to speak about someone like this without actually going first to them or bringing the charges before those who can question them.

Tom said he has never debated, and is not a debater, and did not apply for the debate. So why else would James want Tom, other than the fact Tom is head of the Founders and that would give the appearance of Founders' endorsement? You may not like it, but I think you will just have to swallow it.

 
At Thursday, July 20, 2006 11:47:00 PM, Blogger Charles said...

Micah, Hello!

You said, "See, if you call the Dividing Line program, .... the public at large will be able to examine and hear your defense of your claims

Better still, if James would quit hiding behind his "Dividing Line" microphone and allow unedited comments on his blog, anyone could post their disagreements on his blog.

James has a need to control the conversation, and that is why you will never see comments on James's blog. And that says a lot about the strength of James White's arguments.

Charles

 
At Friday, July 21, 2006 12:09:00 AM, Anonymous Bob L. Ross said...

MICAH'S MALARKEY
Micah said...

Actually, the Dividing Line is fine, the reason we're urging you to call in is so that we might hear you bring your claims and charges to Dr. White himself and listen to the outcome.

Surely, you of the "Divining Line" can read, can't you? You may read to your DL'ers what we say here, if you want them to hear it.

I do not listen to the program, and would not want to help its declining "ratings" and James' ego by calling in. His case of egomania is already on the edge of psychosis, and I would not want to be the one to push him further.

 
At Friday, July 21, 2006 2:16:00 AM, Anonymous Bob L. Ross said...

MISUNDERSTANDING?
Micah said...


You want the elders of his church (which includes Dr. White) to come before YOUR church and present YOUR gripes? What are you trying to say?

I think you must have a misunderstanding.

It was James who wanted to present charges against me (Bob Ross) before the Elders of my church. We simply responded to his request.

We sent the invitation to James' church, and re-sent it later -- but there has been no response.

>>>
TO THE ELDERS OF REFORMED BAPTIST CHURCH, PHOENIX, ARIZONA
April 8, 2006

Dear Brethren:

We have received no reply to the following. Please inform us if you will be responding. -- Bob L. Ross

>>
Subj: PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT [04/05--2006]
Date: 4/5/2006 5:35:18 PM Central Daylight Time
From: Pilgrimpub
To: dfry@azwest.net

PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT

Posted on The Calvinist Flyswatter, April 5, 2006.

Sent to the Elders of Reformed Baptist Church, Phoenix, Arizona:

The Elders of the Reformed Baptist Church of Phoenix, Arizona are hereby formally invited to come to Pasadena, Texas for the presentation of charges against Bob L. Ross by James White before Park Temple Baptist Church.

Proceeding according to Scripture, Matthew 18:15-18, Brother White is first invited to confer with Brother Ross privately.

If they cannot settle the complaint, then Brother White is invited to take one or two more to discuss the complaint with Brother Ross, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

If that does not settle the matter to Brother White's satisfaction, then he is invited to present the matter before the church here in Pasadena where Brother Ross is a member and subject to discipline.

Our church hopes that the third step does not become necessary, but if it does, we hope a cordial settlement is reached.

I am acting for the church where I am a member, Park Temple, and hope this matter may be resolved to every one's satisfaction. --
Bob L. Ross
>>

I hope this clarifies this matter for you. Evidently, James was just blowing smoke when he made his request.

 
At Friday, July 21, 2006 1:57:00 PM, Blogger Micah said...

I do not listen to the program, and would not want to help its declining "ratings" and James' ego by calling in. His case of egomania is already on the edge of psychosis, and I would not want to be the one to push him further.

In other words: "I don't care what Dr. White ACTUALLY SAYS, I'm going to base my opinions on fantasy."

Thank you for the admission of ignorance.

 
At Friday, July 21, 2006 1:59:00 PM, Blogger Micah said...

So why else would James want Tom, other than the fact Tom is head of the Founders and that would give the appearance of Founders' endorsement?

Actually, James DOES have the Founder's endorsement on this issue, and is acting as a buffer between Tom and the Caners. If you had listened to the DL you'd know that, if you actually bothered to read what people said, you'd know that, but rather you continue to speak without knowledge and expose your folly to all.

 
At Friday, July 21, 2006 2:00:00 PM, Blogger Micah said...

I hope this clarifies this matter for you. Evidently, James was just blowing smoke when he made his request.

Might you post the context of the "request" also? It would be nice to see what was actually said.

 
At Saturday, July 22, 2006 12:06:00 AM, Anonymous Bob L. Ross said...

"WHITE LIGHTNIN'"
Micah said...


In other words: "I don't care what Dr. White ACTUALLY SAYS, I'm going to base my opinions on fantasy."

Thank you for the admission of ignorance.


You think and write a lot like James. Too much "White Lightnin'" has made you drunk. The WL causes you to put words into people's mouths according to your wishful thinking. That's one of James' bad habits -- making people "say" what James wishes they had said. When Campbellites do that to me in debate, I call on them to produce the material where it was said.

James wrote to me, wanting to present charges against me to our Elders. We invited him and his elders to come and do so, in a decent, orderly, and scriptural manner. If they choose not to come, then that's no problem with us. They just seem to be taking a long time to give us some type of reply, whether they are coming or not coming.

We don't want James to be denied the right to offer his charges, but we believe in "fair play," and we believe the accused has the right to be heard also.

What James says on his "Divining Line" is of no concern to me, so far as my hearing it is concerned. If he says the same things he writes, then I don't miss much, do I? If what he says on his DL is simply repetitive of the stuff about which he writes, it would be more of a waste of time to listen to it again.

 
At Saturday, July 22, 2006 12:09:00 AM, Anonymous Bob L. Ross said...

WHAT WAS SAID
Micah said...


Might you post the context of the "request" also? It would be nice to see what was actually said.

I'm sure James can provide that to you. You know how he loves to "file" stuff.

 
At Saturday, July 22, 2006 12:16:00 AM, Anonymous Bob L. Ross said...

FOUNDERS ENDORSEMENT?
Micah said...


Actually, James DOES have the Founder's endorsement on this issue, and is acting as a buffer between Tom and the Caners.

I'm not so sure of that. I saw several comments on Tom's blog which were not very enthusiastic about this debate. Some more or less said it was a bad idea.

James already has a "black eye" from his written debate with Dave Hunt, despite Hunt's many weaknesses as a debater. I don't think he can do any better against the Caners.

 
At Monday, July 24, 2006 4:01:00 PM, Blogger Micah said...

James already has a "black eye" from his written debate with Dave Hunt, despite Hunt's many weaknesses as a debater. I don't think he can do any better against the Caners.

Hah... Dave Hunt couldn't keep a coherent thought throughout the book much less stay on topic. If you think otherwise you must have been reading a different book.

 
At Monday, July 24, 2006 4:02:00 PM, Blogger Micah said...

"Might you post the context of the "request" also? It would be nice to see what was actually said."

I'm sure James can provide that to you. You know how he loves to "file" stuff.

I see, so the context doesn't matter, the facts don't matter, just your fantasy view of the truth. Yet another fantastic admission.

 
At Monday, July 24, 2006 4:04:00 PM, Blogger Micah said...

What James says on his "Divining Line" is of no concern to me, so far as my hearing it is concerned.

Again, so you admit to not listening to the Dividing Line and are therefore presenting material on something you know nothing about? You remind me of Dave "I know very little about the Reformers" Hunt.

 
At Monday, July 24, 2006 9:47:00 PM, Blogger Charles said...

Micah,

I see your interests tend toward sci-fi. No wonder you like James White so much, the fiction coming from his keyboard is worthy of a series on the sci-fi channel.

The Bible says to "redeem the time." Listening to the Dividing Line would be the opposite of redeeming the time, especially when James' views on most any subject are in print. If his views are in print, why listen to the DL just to hear James say the same thing? The only thing you get from the DL is more “White smoke” such as the announcer calling him "Dr" James White which is no doubt an appeal to James' vanity.

James' doctorate is from an unaccredited correspondence school. Ask to see a copy of James' dissertation. Better yet, why don't you call the DL and ask James who was on his examining committee. Or ask him for the academic credentials of the professors in his "doctorate" program.

Charles

 
At Monday, July 24, 2006 11:05:00 PM, Blogger Charles said...

UPDATE (7/24/06): On May 9, Phil Johnson posted the following on his blog,

I've had to withdraw from the Alpha & Omega national conference and cruise in November. An unexpected conflict arose that makes it impossible for me to go. Of course, my duties at Grace to You and Grace Community Church must take priority over everything else I do. So although I regret having to cancel, I couldn't anticipate or avoid the conflict, and I can't change it. It especially pains me to disappoint James White, but he is a good friend and has been very gracious about it. Likewise, Mike O'Fallon, who is arranging the cruise, was extremely kind and understanding, even though my withdrawal is a huge inconvenience to him. My profound apologies to all who are inconvenienced or disappointed by it.

"An unexpected conflict arose"? Very interesting.

Charles

HT: SBTS student

 
At Tuesday, July 25, 2006 12:04:00 AM, Anonymous hootieandtheblowfish said...

thanks for the update:

which reminds me that this blog would be a great place for gossipy old women to get news.

 
At Tuesday, July 25, 2006 12:36:00 AM, Anonymous warrenl said...

I vote this site as the most boring and monotonous in the blogsphere...yawn...

At least White and Tom speak to more than one topic. I find it interesting that White and the Founders Ministry are the only topics ever discussed here.

 
At Tuesday, July 25, 2006 11:24:00 AM, Anonymous David said...

It is amazing to see that the very issues James debates with catholicism we have it here also. Talk about veneration of the non saints. I have never seen so many people absolutely give their life for James. All we need is the kool -aid and we have Jonestown. Seriously, Calvin - maybe, Apostle Peter - Yeah sure but James (not the brother of Jesus mind you); why this veneration?

As a counselor I can definitely see how people love to live through others. That explains why everybody posting here defending James sound just like him (waiting for mental ad hominems about now). Anyways, just venting although I don't expect a blog to make even the slightest of a dent in people's mind that JW is just a man, a smart man, but a man nonetheless. A man who has managed to tick of and close bridges to muslims, catholics, JW's among others. Yeah he proly won several debates but he lost a lot of hearts. Get over it people and realize that Charles and Bob ross are probably just getting a kick out of all this drama. If they would worrie, rant, rave, offend, are vitrolic, vicious, and rough as James is then the game would be over. Please people...the eatern orthodox church called and they wanted their veneration back!

 
At Tuesday, July 25, 2006 7:36:00 PM, Anonymous Bob L. Ross said...

"DIVINING LINE"
Micah said...


Again, so you admit to not listening to the Dividing Line and are therefore presenting material on something you know nothing about? You remind me of Dave "I know very little about the Reformers" Hunt.

What do you mean "admit"? Do you think I would actually waste time listening to James' pious palabber?

 
At Wednesday, July 26, 2006 12:08:00 AM, Anonymous Bob L. Ross said...

"ONLY TOPICS"?
warrenl said...

I find it interesting that White and the Founders Ministry are the only topics ever discussed here

I find it rather "unique" that you
have not found the other topics and persons we have discussed. Perhaps you have not examined the Archives?

 
At Wednesday, July 26, 2006 12:13:00 AM, Anonymous Bob L. Ross said...

SPREAD THE WORD
hootieandtheblowfish said...


thanks for the update:

which reminds me that this blog would be a great place for gossipy old women to get news.


Well, spread the word! They surely would find it difficult to find elsewhwere . . . right?

 

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